You mean like the responsible adults from generations before who had school start times of 8 a.m. or 9 a.m.?

School start times does not correlate with "responsible adults". School start times ~does~ correlate with negative psychological and physiological development. This isn't about coddling, this is about recognizing a legitimate health and educational issue and doing something about it.

Brook, I went to Howard High School here in Howard County and graduated in the early 1980's. We started school at 7:30, not 8 or 9 like you want to believe. Middle school began at 8:15 and elementary at 9:15.

And I attended high school in Prince George's County and our start time was 8:15 a.m. What's your point?

You made a generalization that children who get up later aren't growing up to be responsible adults. That statement was refuted by the fact that there are plenty of people who went to school at later times than today. The times I gave were from anecdotes of the 1960's. Your generalization suggests that people from those era's are not responsible, because their later start time coddled them and didn't prepare them for the adult workday.

I agree with you Dave. Maybe we graduated from the same Howard Class? 1976 :) I was not referring to any other counties or states regarding thier School Start times in any of my posts. I am and was referring to what I know and that is Howard County and only Howard County. But gotta wonder how the Private school kids (Middle and High School) fair so well when they have to be driven to a bus stop... for example Lotto Plaza... at 6:15 in the morning to catch a bus for a 40 minute ride to school. Seems like all the extra awake time is paying off . just saying.

YES...I applaud your comment especially about our schools and poor performance. Its not broke so lets just shake the money tree!!! Howard County spends too much time on Studies that just drain the funds we could be using to help the kids who can't pass these ridculous tests or need help with just plain learning the basics. Pay me to do this study...I would just make an event on FB and take a poll. No $$$ and no problem. :)

"If parents would be parents & take accountability for their kids' whereabouts and limit their electronics in the evening (TV, iPad, iPod, iTouch, computer, cell phone, etc.) their minds would relax so they can go to sleep at a normal hour."

Except this statement is 100% FALSE according to science. Whether you like the science or not is irrelevant; the average teenager does not enter their sleep cycle until well after 10 p.m., regardless of what their mind is doing.

"It is ridiculous that our tax dollars are being spent on this."

Why is it ridiculous to determine if the health of our students is at risk? What if others with kids in this school system want to know what they have assessed? And exactly how much of "your" tax dollars is going toward this assessment? Could you show us how much of "your" tax dollars is going into this specific task? What exactly is the cost of the assessment, seeing as the majority of research has already been performed without costing Howard County a dime?

Agreed!!!

According to your thought process...

1) Who cares if something is bad for you... suck it up and deal with the consequences.
2) Anyone who didn't go through what you (supposedly) went through is soft.
3) Tax dollars should only go to what you think it should, not to anything that professionals in that field think it should.
4) Science is a bunch of garbage that just makes people soft. Only your personal perceptions of the "real world" matter when making decisions.

The saddest thing is that people like you actually believe this... which probably is the best explanation for the current state of things. -_-

Who's being a bully? I'm pointing out the irrationality of being presented with scientific evidence and then choosing to ignore said evidence because it doesn't fit your personal perception. If pointing out the truth is considered rude, then I suppose I'm the biggest jerk around.

You can throw out all the anecdotes you want about how you went to school, what your mom did, what the "real working world" is like, etc. Of course, for every anecdote you throw out I can throw out ones that contradict it. School? 8:15 a.m. start time for me. Work? 9:00 a.m. start time for me. What does any of this prove? Nothing... anecdotes mean absolutely nothing, so we have to look at the research on the topic.

This isn't just a Howard Co. issue; Howard Co. is not some magic place where things work differently from the rest of the country (or world). So pointing out whether my anecdotes involve Howard Co. is irrelevant.

So, science and studies are not always right? Science provides the best answer with the facts we have. When it is wrong it is because a professional educated in the field proved it was wrong. Are you such a professional? Can you provide research countering that which was been provided?

These things are manipulated for money? Please explain what money is to be made by this. Or are you just paranoid and throwing out flimsy theories and fallacious attacks because you can't provide a good reason?

Just your opinion? Well, you're entitled to your opinion... but you're not entitled to facts. And the facts remain, studies across the United States (not just your localized sample you're claiming) show that early start times have a negative effect on overall development and education. You talk about a lack of common sense, but ignoring overwhelming evidence because you don't like it or believe in it is just that.

What does it matter where I went to school? The effect of early school start times is not specific to Howard County, so why should it matter? Do you believe that Howard County is some magical school district where the laws of biology are different than the rest of the country (or world)? (For your information, you can find out where I went to school as it was stated in an earlier post.)

You keep claiming that there are "studies" that disprove the ones everyone else has posted. Please provide them! You want to have an intelligent discussion, then use logic and critical thought. We have provided scientific evidence... you have not. I will accept another person's opinion ~when they provide FACT to support it.~ Until that point, the opinion is invalid.

On a side note, your ad hominem attacks are both ignorant and indicative of your lack of reason. Calling me a bully, claiming I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not a "lifelong resident", etc. do nothing to support your argument. In addition, you might want to drop the feminine pronouns as I am not a woman (as you can clearly see in my photo.)

No I don' t believe it is magical. I asked about your schooling because you keep eluding to a start time of 8 am when I went to high school here and the start time was 7:30.

I failed to see I where you went to school. As for studies when I get a chance to look I will.

All you want is confrontation and get defensive when someone asks you a question or opposes your points. Get over it.

"Brook Hubbard
10:41 pm on Tuesday, February 19, 2013
And I attended high school in Prince George's County and our start time was 8:15 a.m."

I don't want confrontation, what I want is people to be reasonable and use critical thought. One side of the argument presents decades of studies to support a nationwide movement to start school time later. The other side of the argument uses personal anecdote and opinion to support fallacious arguments, all while ignoring the other side's proof and never providing any of their own.

Also, claims of "you're a bully" and "get over it" don't really add to the maturity of your own statements. I refuse to "get over it" because your lack of reason could affect my own children. Just like you don't want your tax dollars dictated by "unnecessary studies", I don't want my kid's development and education dictated by those who are purposefully ignorant.

Real work requires getting up at 5 a.m.? Who says... you? I've worked for private and public sectors; unless I was working shift work, I never had to be to work before 8 a.m.

Like the others, it seems those opposed to changes in school times cannot do anything but reiterate the same unsupported generalizations. All that does is make your side of the argument look purposefully ignorant.

There are many start times for work. You were lucky to start at 8. Of course 8 seems to be the only start time you accept as normal. Did you ever stop to think that you are abnormal sine you are stuck on a complex time of 8 am?

That's it everyone, I conducted a study and Brook appears abnormal since he can not deviate from 8 am!

Who said I was stuck on 8 a.m.? I said that was the earliest I had to work. I also noted that it means absolutely nothing because it's just another anecdote to counter your own.

Of course, now that you still cannot provide anything mature or logical to support your argument, you're going to resort to ridiculous exaggeration and non sequitur attacks. Do you have anything intelligent to add to this conversation or should we just chalk you up to the same trolls that are plaguing the rest of the articles on this Patch?

David A...Honest Mistake for the name. If you look at Mr. Brooks' picture on his posts you will see he is a man. You will also see he has his fist up ready to fight. I rest my case about my "BULLY" statement.

LOL...David M. I like what you said but then I am just a unintellegent and ignorant troll so my opinion may not matter. :) Could Beth possibly be your sister?
On a different note...The support petition being circulated on line contains signatures from Va, Ca, Mt. Airy Md,and Oella Md, all not in HoCo school district. The only signatures that should count, is those of HoCo voters. Not sure how serious the Board will take the petition anyway but I would challenge the validity.

You bring up a good point that sometimes programs don't work out. However, you neglect to note that the programs you mentioned were not based on physiological needs but on more esoteric questions regarding the efficiency of schools. In addition, all three of these programs were implemented during the 60's and 70's, know for being a period of unconventional ideas and cultural conflicts. To understand why these ideas were tried and why they may not have worked out, we have to recognize the historical context.

The Open Classroom model was brought over by American educators interested in British schooling styles. There was never any evidence that this model was better than the American one; it was simply something new to try because of criticisms about the current U.S. schooling system. Testing found negligible effect on the majority population, but increases in learning from specific student personality types. Of course, the U.S. program was criticized for taking the program too literally and ignoring the core tenets of an "open classroom". Today, many of these tenets are still used, particularly in student-based education found often in special programs, charter schools, and private schools.

The Look & Say method grew out of the holistic approach of psychology, which believed that the whole is different from the part. There was a great conflict in the psychological community over behaviorism versus humanism, and it affected many areas of mental health and developmental studies (including education). Again, testing found that the "whole language" approach did not accurately teach children and it was generally abandoned. Psychology, being a "soft" science and not beholden to strict rules, changed and found that the concept was not without its merits. Today, with the advent of socio-cognitive theories, many educators and psychologists use a mixture of phonetics and whole language approaches to teach reading.

The New Math style originated out of the space race with the Russians; it was an attempt to increase future generations scientific knowledge through the use of teaching advanced mathematical techniques over basic ones. The program was quickly discredited as being unnecessarily complex and having little application to basic American life. Almost everyone today agrees that the only reason it was tried was out of fear during the Cold War, and not for any valid concerns over our current educational system.

The concept of Start Later, however, is not based on cultural upheavals, paradigm shifts in psychology, or interests in esoteric concepts. It is based on the physiology of teenagers and is no different than any other movement based on medical and scientific knowledge.

They have already implemented later start times across the United States. Two Minneapolis districts in 1997, Arlington County (VA) in 2001, Jessamin County (KY) in 2002, Santa Rosa County (FL) in 2007, Indianapolis area in 2010... all of these are success stories. Lower dropout rates, higher grades, positive shifts in student mental health, lower school spending, etc.

These are far different than the pedagogical fads of the 60's and 70's. There is a scientific reason to implement this program. There is over a decade of proof that it works and provides many positive benefits. There is support from not just a singular group with their own ideas, but from a multi-disciplinary movement. That is why I don't believe you can compare this program to the failed attempts of the mid-20th century.

So, because someone posts more than cursory information on a topic, you're going to sit there and:

A) Accuse them of having too much time;
B) Accuse them of gaining said information from a common search engine;
C) Suggest that either of these negates their argument

Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation or are you simply going to make random fallacious (and false) comments?